Quote: "Each of us must advocate for ourselves to get what it is we want, need and deserve."

One of my pet peeves relating to many issues is the seemingly ever present thinking or attitude of "US" and "THEM", invariably this then morphs into mindsets and feelings of "US" V "THEM. This state of being in my mind is one of the biggest portals for opening up unrealistic expectations, useless comparisons, double standards, and many other forms of faulty thinking.

Sorry wasfunonce - I'm going to talk in terms of third party - I don't mean it like I'm talking about you when you are sitting in the same room …. Just easier for me to describe in terms of observation…

Going to the original issue - simply put - wasfunonce's spouse want and need ( for whatever reason) is to return home. If only from his view of his own reality - it is the only or best option for achieving what needs to be done, and moving forward.

Wasfunonce's reality is a little different - for all sorts of reasons for all involved in the situation - him coming home is not the best idea…..YET! Becasue as much as any, or only just some, of his reason's are valid - there are gaping holes that haven't been filled yet. For a start there isn't enough tangible evidence that he has attained the appropriate level of wellness needed in order to function healthily as an individual, as a spouse, as a father, as a member of a family unit, or as a working person on a consistent and persistent basis.

On top of that - it is how he is returning home. His mode of operation is manipulative and covert - to an extent he is being deceptive - he is maneuvering in some less than straight up honest ways.

Little wonder to me, that you feel uncomfortable and bullied wasfunonce - I would feel that way too.

RE: Its more like having a 4th child...needy and clingy like during a phase of teething or going through separation anxiety. A big sign - an indicator - he doesn't do things the same way as more openly aggressive types do - he has more passive aggressive traits - to me this means that he will have tendency to use methods of manipulation which cannot be seen openly and obviously - the bullying, manipulation, the attempts to control are done in very subtle and covert ways.

A small digression for a moment - and unfortunately somewhat possibly sexist comment - even with out the presence of a mood disorder or depression - I have of late become increasingly aware of an error in recognition that men tend to have …. in general if you are a woman who has been on this planet for a reasonable amount of years and you are also a mother of children - you have developed certain skills through your experiences. If you are a mother of experience you will know all about most any kind of trick from the book of manipulation.

My kids are 21 and 18 - and they are still learning and being amazed, that good ol' mom possesses what seems like to them as superpowers …. She can read lips, she has an acute sense of hearing, her vision denies probability - seemingly she has eyes in the back of her head! And added to that she has developed some very uncanny 6th sense abilities - she knows when they're lying, seems to know exactly what is going on in their minds, spots a plot a mile off, can see straight though any con or scam, can predict the future, and at times just instinctively knows when they are up to mischief even from 6,000 miles away.

It seems as though most men miss seeing this phenomenon, if not, then they dwell under the misperception that we don't, can't, or won't use our 'superpowers' when dealing with them. Despite claims to the opposite, we are not loosing our marbles, imagining things, or twisting reality - we know all too well when 'the moves' are being put on us.

If along with this experience as a mother, you have also lived through living with someone who has a mood disorder - along with your pain, hurt and frustration, you've learned even more..... and become even more skilled at spotting and dealing with all the tricks in the manipulation book.

Wasfunonce - it seems over time and during his absence you have worked on your personal boundaries - and an added bonus is that you 'lost the fear'……I can make it with out him. These last few months have proven that I am strong enough. That is huge. ( a big turning point in my life too) Big kudos!

RE: I've changed the rules, and understandably he doesn't get where I'm coming from…..we teach others how to treat us. I do believe that, now more than ever. If I let go of my needs let him back where he started I feel as though I'm saying, "my feelings don't really matter."

To me, very valid points and realistic concerns. Along with we teach others how to treat us another common principle, and often proved dynamic, the thing that comes to my mind is the phrase: "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior."

Generally speaking and broadly construed, we can use and recognize this principle, that indeed past behavior is the best predictor of future performance. But we as humans will often use a principle, or often proven principles in some subjective and limited contextual ways, as evidence to support our theories, expectations, assumptions, decisions - both to others and ourselves.

It's worth the time and energy to scrutinize, analyze, define, and assess in greater detail. Two sides to every coin - if we don't look for them or at them we could be limiting our own view, belief, and options.

Using and acting on the principle the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior in this situation, based on 'his' past unacceptable or dysfunctional behaviors, there is a good chance he will continue to so into the future, unless he manages his illness effectively. There is little evidence available as yet that he has actually achieved levels of sufficiant effective management in the present......largely in my mind because he is moving forward using his old very familiar methods of operation. Rarely is a problem solved by taking/using the same steps taken which created the problem in the first place. On this premise it would be very natural to have concerns about his return, or even refuse him.

But as said, two sides to a coin - there is also the principle that "Past performance does not guarantee future results"

I think there could be a common tendency to use the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior in scenarios where the behavior being referenced of a negative nature - a leopard never changes his spots, once a cheater always a cheater type of argument in eesence. Where as "Past performance does not guarantee future results" is more often used when the behavior being spoken about is positive by nature ….. a warning to those who perhaps have much enthusiasm about another person's good reputation, positive behaviors, past positive actions being taken as a guarantee that it will always continue in future and the outcome will be favorable.

I think the potential flaw with the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, is that it leads our attention to focus not only onto the more negative behavior - but to also focus more on the past rather than the 'now'.

Maybe the "lesson/directive/moral of the story" hidden The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior is that: if we don't change anything we will probably continue to act as we did in the past

If a healthy future path is to be found, and history is not going to be repeated then perhaps we need to understand and recognize multiple principles and then adjust them to make them work for us, rather than limit us. So "Past performance is a strong indicator of future performance, but we also know Past performance does not guarantee future result, AND we know that if WE don't change anything we will act as we did in the past and history will repeat itself. ( WE includes I, me, and us …no them!)

So things can't be the same as they were before - or the risk to continue to act as we did in the past will be greater, if not the predictable outcome.

A new starting point is needed in order to start new history, and the Present ( here and NOW) is the past of the future. So could it be present behavior is the best predictor of future performance. ?????

I think wasfunonce - you have changed your ways of doing and being from the those you had in the PAST - your spouse has changed some but not all. The ways of the relationship cannot help but change when its participants change. I think your 'plan' - the proposals and setting of conditions for him returning are the "change" needed for a new starting point.

I think most importantly what you did was firstly was to change the rules for yourself….. Create new methods and modes of operation including strengthening your personal boundaries. I don't see renegotiating relationship boundaries - asking for the setting of conditions in the way you did as 'forcing' boundaries on him or being harsh. You told him about your feelings, you communicated your personal boundaries, and then left him to choose his own consequences.

Thankfully it sounds as though he is willing, (even though maybe not understanding why it is necessary) to adjust his "present" behavior by participating in a plan of operation. That is a solid indicator - possibly a predictor of further passiveness in the future.

I can see I've been long and convoluted - I hope you got something that perhaps you can use with your husband in a helpful way - but if not - thank you for posting and making me think - in my thoughtful meanderings I found something helpful to me - my stbxh goes off the deep end in a big way if I even make reference to his past behaviors and poor choices - I now have something I can point out to him during impending discussions "present behavior is the best predictor of future performance." His present behavior, actions, choices will play a part in his future outcomes/consequences.... he has that choice, HE possesses and owns that choice in the here and now - whether or nor he recognizes it, understands it, or even acknowledges it...well that his issue and choice ...that last part is not within my control.