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Feb 20 08 7:49 AM
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Feb 20 08 11:18 AM
Please stay strong, you are doing the right thing. Let us know how this turns out.
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Feb 20 08 5:09 PM
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Feb 21 08 1:30 AM
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Feb 21 08 11:40 AM
bluestar7 wrote: So AnnLee, you wouldn't be willing to sign a contract I said that I might very well sign it but that doesn't mean that on any given day I might not feel like what was in that contract was what was best for me. I would have to do what was best for me because if I am not healthy and content then I couldn't ensure that my SO or family was healthy and content. If someone then waved some piece of paper in my face and told me that even though I felt that what they wanted was wrong for me then I would feel pressured. that says you will uphold your marriage vows - especially when you are absolutely insistent that you want to stay married? That you won't cheat on your spouse? That you won't go on wild spending sprees and hide bank statements? That you won't subject your family to dangerous situations? That you won't see your pdoc regularly for medication management rather than taking medication that's no longer prescribed for you or going off meds without consulting a pdoc? That you won't seek supportive therapy - especially when you are having difficulty? Marriage vows wise, if I was telling someone that yes, I was going to uphold my vows and not cheat and alll of that then my word should be good enough because making me sign a piece of paper makes no difference. In the end it's my word that counts. A piece of paper is not going to dictate my actions any more than my vows. That actually goes for all of the above questions. If I say I am going to do something then making me sign a piece of paper when we are supposed to be married and you're supposed to trust my word only implies, even if they don't mean it to, that to some degree my SO does not trust me. Hence making me feel untrustworthy. And, the type of therapy was up to you as we both know that if you don't agree with the approach, it's not worth it? From what I read I believe she stipulated what type of counseling was to be had so I was going off of that stipulation. If she had said "the counseling of your choice" my response would have been different. You're fortunate that you're very self-aware as not everyone with BP is. My ex was not although he thought he was - especially when he was manic or very depressed. You're going off of personal experience with your ex as I am going off of personal experience. My response was not to tell her that she was wrong. I actually stated that she is probably doing the right thing for her children. My response was to let her know that it might not be received very well. If it's been proven that your memory is faulty - e.g. claiming that some of your manic episodes never happened even though they scared you silly afterward, then would you really be adverse to agreeing to a "contract" that says you'll get help if you feel the urge to repeat these behaviors? It's not treating someone like a child, it's asking them to step up, act like an adult and take some responsibility. People can take responsibility in a number of ways. What i said is that i would feel as if I was being treated like a child. Those would be my feelings whether they are right or wrong they would probably dictate how I reacted and what's wrong for one person may be right for another. As I said, what is right for her may not be right for him.
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Feb 22 08 1:36 AM
Blue star, so sorry this brought up a big messy memory! I most definitely did not mean to start a major debate. Your opinion and experience as a supporter is valuable. Its clear there is both sides of the fence represented here today. Human nature has it that no one wants to be backed in a corner...if so we will most likely come out fighting. Annlee, I have said it before and will again...your pursuit of wellness is amazing. I think I understand where you and power boop are coming from. This just sucks. The nature of the disease wreaks such a havoc. No one likes to be told what to do and to him thats exactly what I'm doing. As hard as it was for him to hear it was hard for me to draw the line that way. I waited and waited for 5 months hoping he would desire and seek wellness on his own. To be honest, I was trying to avoid conflict with him--that was a relational pattern--you know pick your battles. I didn't want to be the one to draw that kind of line in the sand--it would be easier for me if I didn't have to. Standing up for myself and what I felt is right takes a lot of will and determination. Well, anyway...we had a good talk today--he said he would agree to the above letter including doing daily mood logs. His pdoc recommended them last may, but now he said "I think that could be helpful." Wonders of mercy..... Blue star, thanks for your advise...he even agreed to the put it in writing. If he isn't placating me it seems to me he has been away from home long enough to see what he truly wants. Time will tell. I'm not fooling myself. He could get here and say "what agreement?" Do I say I'm throwing in the towel for he will surely not be able to do this? Or do I take it one day at a time and adjust my plan if it doesn't work out? If he is really willing to try, so am I. Buckle up, its going to be a bumpy ride!!! Thank you all so much for the support and continuing to come back to help the Freshman, soon to be Sophomore, class! WFO
Feb 22 08 1:45 AM
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Feb 23 08 2:05 PM
Quote: "Each of us must advocate for ourselves to get what it is we want, need and deserve."
One of my pet peeves relating to many issues is the seemingly ever present thinking or attitude of "US" and "THEM", invariably this then morphs into mindsets and feelings of "US" V "THEM. This state of being in my mind is one of the biggest portals for opening up unrealistic expectations, useless comparisons, double standards, and many other forms of faulty thinking.
Sorry wasfunonce - I'm going to talk in terms of third party - I don't mean it like I'm talking about you when you are sitting in the same room …. Just easier for me to describe in terms of observation…
Going to the original issue - simply put - wasfunonce's spouse want and need ( for whatever reason) is to return home. If only from his view of his own reality - it is the only or best option for achieving what needs to be done, and moving forward.
Wasfunonce's reality is a little different - for all sorts of reasons for all involved in the situation - him coming home is not the best idea…..YET! Becasue as much as any, or only just some, of his reason's are valid - there are gaping holes that haven't been filled yet. For a start there isn't enough tangible evidence that he has attained the appropriate level of wellness needed in order to function healthily as an individual, as a spouse, as a father, as a member of a family unit, or as a working person on a consistent and persistent basis.
On top of that - it is how he is returning home. His mode of operation is manipulative and covert - to an extent he is being deceptive - he is maneuvering in some less than straight up honest ways.
Little wonder to me, that you feel uncomfortable and bullied wasfunonce - I would feel that way too.
RE: Its more like having a 4th child...needy and clingy like during a phase of teething or going through separation anxiety. A big sign - an indicator - he doesn't do things the same way as more openly aggressive types do - he has more passive aggressive traits - to me this means that he will have tendency to use methods of manipulation which cannot be seen openly and obviously - the bullying, manipulation, the attempts to control are done in very subtle and covert ways.
A small digression for a moment - and unfortunately somewhat possibly sexist comment - even with out the presence of a mood disorder or depression - I have of late become increasingly aware of an error in recognition that men tend to have …. in general if you are a woman who has been on this planet for a reasonable amount of years and you are also a mother of children - you have developed certain skills through your experiences. If you are a mother of experience you will know all about most any kind of trick from the book of manipulation.
My kids are 21 and 18 - and they are still learning and being amazed, that good ol' mom possesses what seems like to them as superpowers …. She can read lips, she has an acute sense of hearing, her vision denies probability - seemingly she has eyes in the back of her head! And added to that she has developed some very uncanny 6th sense abilities - she knows when they're lying, seems to know exactly what is going on in their minds, spots a plot a mile off, can see straight though any con or scam, can predict the future, and at times just instinctively knows when they are up to mischief even from 6,000 miles away.
It seems as though most men miss seeing this phenomenon, if not, then they dwell under the misperception that we don't, can't, or won't use our 'superpowers' when dealing with them. Despite claims to the opposite, we are not loosing our marbles, imagining things, or twisting reality - we know all too well when 'the moves' are being put on us.
If along with this experience as a mother, you have also lived through living with someone who has a mood disorder - along with your pain, hurt and frustration, you've learned even more..... and become even more skilled at spotting and dealing with all the tricks in the manipulation book.
Wasfunonce - it seems over time and during his absence you have worked on your personal boundaries - and an added bonus is that you 'lost the fear'……I can make it with out him. These last few months have proven that I am strong enough. That is huge. ( a big turning point in my life too) Big kudos!
RE: I've changed the rules, and understandably he doesn't get where I'm coming from…..we teach others how to treat us. I do believe that, now more than ever. If I let go of my needs let him back where he started I feel as though I'm saying, "my feelings don't really matter."
To me, very valid points and realistic concerns. Along with we teach others how to treat us another common principle, and often proved dynamic, the thing that comes to my mind is the phrase: "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior."
Generally speaking and broadly construed, we can use and recognize this principle, that indeed past behavior is the best predictor of future performance. But we as humans will often use a principle, or often proven principles in some subjective and limited contextual ways, as evidence to support our theories, expectations, assumptions, decisions - both to others and ourselves.
It's worth the time and energy to scrutinize, analyze, define, and assess in greater detail. Two sides to every coin - if we don't look for them or at them we could be limiting our own view, belief, and options.
Using and acting on the principle the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior in this situation, based on 'his' past unacceptable or dysfunctional behaviors, there is a good chance he will continue to so into the future, unless he manages his illness effectively. There is little evidence available as yet that he has actually achieved levels of sufficiant effective management in the present......largely in my mind because he is moving forward using his old very familiar methods of operation. Rarely is a problem solved by taking/using the same steps taken which created the problem in the first place. On this premise it would be very natural to have concerns about his return, or even refuse him.
But as said, two sides to a coin - there is also the principle that "Past performance does not guarantee future results"
I think there could be a common tendency to use the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior in scenarios where the behavior being referenced of a negative nature - a leopard never changes his spots, once a cheater always a cheater type of argument in eesence. Where as "Past performance does not guarantee future results" is more often used when the behavior being spoken about is positive by nature ….. a warning to those who perhaps have much enthusiasm about another person's good reputation, positive behaviors, past positive actions being taken as a guarantee that it will always continue in future and the outcome will be favorable.
I think the potential flaw with the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, is that it leads our attention to focus not only onto the more negative behavior - but to also focus more on the past rather than the 'now'.
Maybe the "lesson/directive/moral of the story" hidden The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior is that: if we don't change anything we will probably continue to act as we did in the past
If a healthy future path is to be found, and history is not going to be repeated then perhaps we need to understand and recognize multiple principles and then adjust them to make them work for us, rather than limit us. So "Past performance is a strong indicator of future performance, but we also know Past performance does not guarantee future result, AND we know that if WE don't change anything we will act as we did in the past and history will repeat itself. ( WE includes I, me, and us …no them!)
So things can't be the same as they were before - or the risk to continue to act as we did in the past will be greater, if not the predictable outcome.
A new starting point is needed in order to start new history, and the Present ( here and NOW) is the past of the future. So could it be present behavior is the best predictor of future performance. ?????
I think wasfunonce - you have changed your ways of doing and being from the those you had in the PAST - your spouse has changed some but not all. The ways of the relationship cannot help but change when its participants change. I think your 'plan' - the proposals and setting of conditions for him returning are the "change" needed for a new starting point.
I think most importantly what you did was firstly was to change the rules for yourself….. Create new methods and modes of operation including strengthening your personal boundaries. I don't see renegotiating relationship boundaries - asking for the setting of conditions in the way you did as 'forcing' boundaries on him or being harsh. You told him about your feelings, you communicated your personal boundaries, and then left him to choose his own consequences.
Thankfully it sounds as though he is willing, (even though maybe not understanding why it is necessary) to adjust his "present" behavior by participating in a plan of operation. That is a solid indicator - possibly a predictor of further passiveness in the future. I can see I've been long and convoluted - I hope you got something that perhaps you can use with your husband in a helpful way - but if not - thank you for posting and making me think - in my thoughtful meanderings I found something helpful to me - my stbxh goes off the deep end in a big way if I even make reference to his past behaviors and poor choices - I now have something I can point out to him during impending discussions "present behavior is the best predictor of future performance." His present behavior, actions, choices will play a part in his future outcomes/consequences.... he has that choice, HE possesses and owns that choice in the here and now - whether or nor he recognizes it, understands it, or even acknowledges it...well that his issue and choice ...that last part is not within my control.
Feb 23 08 2:58 PM
As for the other issue which has arisen and seemingly effectively got some pants in a bunch - "the contract" issue …..
Isn't there some saying about 'I'm not sure if what you heard I thought I said, was what I meant I said, or that you thought you heard what I meant I thought I said, that you heard me say…"
I have to wonder the word to contract meant different things to different people. Truly a speaker has the responsibility to communicate their message accurately and precisely choosing their words to reflect their meaning and actual message - but in any conversation there is responsibility that lies with the listener - speaker needs to speak well - but a listener needs to listen well - we each have a personal responsibility with incoming information we receive…… firstly, never to shoot the messenger, even unwittingly or unintentionally…. and then to verify what we think we heard - to determine whether clearly defined definitions are shared or not, and we really are all on the same page.
Contract - yes it can be a legal document - can be seen as stipulations - can be seen as being told what to do and when to do and how to do things. But that would depend on the intention, the purpose, and the type of delivery…… AND the words chosen.
Would the reactions and thoughts about 'contract' idea have been so strong or the same if the word was replaced by " written agreement" …. maybe, maybe not. But what if the term 'written plan" or 'joint plan of action' were used. OR Wellness Recovery Action Plan ?
At this point I'd like to repeat One of my pet peeves relating to many issues is the seemingly ever present thinking or attitude of "US" and "THEM", invariably this then morphs into mindsets and feelings of "US" V "THEM. This state of being in my mind is one of the biggest portals for opening up unrealistic expectations, useless comparisons, double standards, and many other forms of faulty thinking.
There is the person with the illness, they needs tools to heal and recover and then to maintain and remain in wellness. Then there is the family and spouse in the fallout of an illness and addiction. Then, there are the torn and broken relationships.
At this point I don't think there is any US or them - just ALL!!! The person with D or mood disorder, those in the fallout, and the relationships ALL need the following things - the methods, the solutions, the support, the tools, the different modes of doing and being..... These are things they could ALL do with: Wellness Tools, Wellness Recovery Action Planning, Relapse Prevention, Crisis Planning, Developing a Strong Support System, Education, Personal Responsibility, Self-Advocacy, Building Self-Esteem, Healing from the Effects of Trauma, and Relieving Loneliness and Worry.
Contract - it is just a word - and very often when we apply a meaning to word - it has to with the ways we are most familiar with the word and how we've experienced it most. The 'contract' idea I feel was meant in the sense of it being a Wellness Recovery Action Plan. It is a tool commonly used in interventions and recovery. There are some very good reasons behind it being written and signed. It might not suit all people - or be the appropriate action - or it could not be the appropriate timing - that doesn't negate or define its value.
Example of things in a Wellness Recovery Action Plan What they need to do every day to stay healthy and well; Things that might upset them and what they can do if these things do happen; Signs that they are not feeling well and things they can do to help themselves feel better; and, Signs that things are going really badly and things they can do to make the situation better.
Wellness Recovery Action Plan
Developing the plan with a supporter, in a group or even as a family increases options and understanding
How much of our own discomfort are we willing to sit with while someone is trying out new choices? How are our boundaries continuously being redefined as we struggle to deepen each individual relationship? What are the assumptions we already hold about this person, by virtue of his/her diagnosis, history, lifestyle? How can we put aside our assumptions and predictions in order to be fully present to the situation and open to the possibility for the other person to do the same? What are the things that might get in the way of both of us stretching and growing?
All quotes I've used come from: Mary Ellen Copeland, she is a mental health recovery educator and author. Her focus is on self-help. She has learned the concepts, skills and strategies she teaches from her own personal experience with extreme mood swings and from her ongoing studies with people who experience psychiatric symptoms. http://www.mentalhealthrecovery.com/
QUOTE : "The most important lesson that I learned from all of this is that in making decisions about me and my life, I first must listen to myself. I must ask myself what I know and feel about myself. Then, if I want to, I can reach out to others for their ideas. As each of them shares their opinion or gives their advice, I can weigh it carefully and see how it resonates with me--does it feel right to me or doesn't it? If it feels right I can do or believe as they suggest. If it doesn't feel right, I don't need to.
You may have received so much advice and been told so many things about yourself over the years that you have no idea how to access your inner knowledge. While it takes time and patience, you can learn, or improve your ability, to listen to yourself and to determine what is best and right for you. Some of the following ideas may be helpful to you. As you work on this, you will discover other ways that help you to know yourself and what you need.
When another person makes a suggestion of something you should do or says something about you, make sure it feels right to you before acting on it. You may ask yourself, is it a "bing" (right) or is it a "thud" (wrong)? If it is about some action, you could write the options on sheets of paper. Shuffle them. Then choose a sheet of paper. By noticing your emotions about what the paper says, you will know whether or not it is the right answer for you.
Educate yourself so that you know all there is to know about the issue or issues at hand. As you learn, make sure what you are learning feels right to you. Remember, just because it is in a book by a prestigious author or is on an internet site does not mean it is right, or that it is right for you. " http://www.mentalhealthrecovery.com/art_expertyou.php
BING or THUD - we own the choice!
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